I was a Drupal App Store hater
I think I've only seen the idea of a Drupal App Store floated on Twitter. However as the movement continues for the meta-issue on making core maintainable, I can totally see what the Drupal App Store people were talking about. It's just too bad they associated with with a highly profitable monster corporation.
One thing Drupal does leverage better than any other is a single, central authority for downloading contributed modules and Drupal doesn't use that to its advantage as I think it could. Let's not call that central location a Drupal App Store. Let's just call it the Drupal Module Installer. I bet someone at Lullabot can come up with a better name, but it can't have "App" or "Store" in it.
I think the overall Drupal maintainability issues is a symptom to the need for an improvement to the module search and installation process. If you could browse popular modules in contrib from your Drupal site, which don't come included in the .tar.gz, and then could install them without having to do extra chmodding, ftp, or sftp config, then that's the vision I see for the how to get this kind of functionality as part of an install profile.
The installer should have some magic sauce to handle the installation. It's possible that it could borrow from the Drush engine, but Drupal should never expect the average Drupal site administrator to need to resort to using a terminal to install a module. Solve the issue of difficult interaction with contrib, and issues like arguing about OpenID, blog, and poll in core I think will go away because then putting OpenID in core will be a transparent matter of `drush dl openid` in the background magic sauce.
Submitted by deekayen on Sun, 08/28/2011 - 7:45pm
» deekayen's blog · Printer-friendly version Topics: Drupal
Remove my name
I am convinced by now and I do not think I was this hostile to the idea ever. Chx
Sorry
I just meant to say I saw you commented on it. I don't even remember what your commentary was.
Don't confuse modules and
Don't confuse modules and applications. Modules provide functions, while applications provide features. A Drupal Application is a complete website, much like a WordPress site is a complete website.
Modules provide the functions to create the features applications depend upon. A Drupal site with all the modules activated is still mostly useless without creating any features.
WordPress is an application to begin with and can therefore provide plugins as extensions to this application (for example, dozens of plugins that embed Amazon book lists into a blog). Drupal is an API of modules that you can use to build applications, and Drupal developers use them to operate their business of custom application development, cooperating with each other by sharing modules.
A Drupal App Store would be interesting because Drupal Apps can share modules, for example a q&a forum and a wiki sharing users. The forum app developer could earn royalties on app subscriptions and so would the wiki developer, and they both would contribute to the user module to improve their respective app.
@Jeff Cook Screw the UX and
@Jeff Cook
Attention to UX isn't a bad thing per se: I think the Overlay module was an unfortunate by-product. It should never have been in core but that doesn't mean core shouldn't have some UX improvements, and I think a package browser (à la Wordpress but hopefully with higher quality modules) would be an advantage.
@Mojo: Drupal describes itself as a 'content management platform', which I take to mean a CMS but designed for flexibility and extensibility. If performance is your main aim, go elsewhere, although D7 is impressively scalable. And database abstraction isn't about making things easier for SQL novices, it's about making code more interoperable. If you run your Drupal site on an Oracle DB (I suppose there might be good reasons), without the DBTNG layer you wouldn't be able to use a contrib module designed for MySQL (unless the queries are super simple).
Open App Standard
A lot is happening here. Acquia, Phase2 Technology, and SubHub have all announced marketplaces where products, web services, and "apps" can be found, bought, and installed. The same three companies have also announced an Open App Standard document, currently in draft form, which could turn these marketplaces into a standard implementation that can be repeated, and which gives outside vendors one single method for preparing their apps for inclusion in all of the marketplaces.
Here is the working draft document for the standard: http://groups.drupal.org/open-app-standard/oas
Here is my session from DrupalCon London where I was joined by representatives from Acquia, Phase2, and SubHub: http://london2011.drupal.org/conference/sessions/taking-inventory-drupal...
Here are the respective announcements: http://www.computerworld.com.au/article/398414/acquia_unveils_apps_marke... http://www.cmscritic.com/subhub-launches-worlds-first-drupal-powered-app... http://www.agileapproach.com/blog-entry/apps-web-drupal-why-how
I'm trying to leave purchasing out of it
If we as a community don't setup an accepting environment for a module installer, some place like Acquia will create one and make it just as distasteful as the Apple one, featuring only paid-for addons from their own proprietary repository.
For an example of this done right
Look at the way Wordpress handles plugins on a GoDaddy account. It is seem less and dead simple. I imagine it'll work on any hosting account that you take the time to set up your ftp details though.
-Mojo
I'm seeing Dejavu here.
I'm seeing Dejavu here. Instead on the kernel side, now become product side ;)
Maybe our community have this conservative tradition, when something that need drastic change purposed. It would get strong negative comment storm first.
But you that's a good thing. It show people really love Drupal, so they're so sensitive about it.
Let's look what once called 'smallcore' start to become today, when everyone stop their flam and fanboyism. Calm down, and able to think logically.
What's the indicator to guage you have think somewhat logically? - No serious - No angry - No bias - See both good and bad - Not feel so excited - Not feel so bad I wondered why Computer Science people or programmers not systemetic themself, as in their work. After I've dive into some fundamental Harvard CS courses, I feel it should be easy for them, they know the recipe how to make anything right. Apply that to our brain should be not hard.
When logical combine with constructive, creativity or whatever. It lead to something new. Take away the bad parts, learned good parts and introduced some original idea.
Please, rethink carefully and list here what is the good and bad part of your 'App Store'. What you imagined Drupal App store will look like? ... Apple App store? And how it will destroy Drupal?
How about it being a centralized place for site builder, business able to find and buy something like advanced services & support, eg. Drupal Pantheon ,directly from variety of prefessional in Drupal Community? If the 'app store' is more like a market for anything that will not transform any Drupal contribs to be product, but give maintainer more time and resources to work on it by closing their typical shop. Is it still be a no no?
Or you think realman should only code in 010101101010101100. Then Drupal is too easy for you.
Regards, Richard C
Change your outlook on life
When you start asking questions in the negative, like "And how it will destroy Drupal?" you've got to change your outlook on life.
Oops! I was reply to Jeff
Oops! I was reply to Jeff Cook down there. Didn't click the reply button first.
I would be so great if we can have brain-computer interface with Drupal comment module, so ti reply to the right comment automatically ;)
Richard C
Drupal bloat does come from
Drupal bloat does come from other places than dummy UX features, it's true. But I think of it more as a slippery slope. Sure, one or two dummy features doesn't add much. But in the next release, you put in more dummy features, and more in the next, and more in the next, Soon, you have a cms that is dummy feature bloat. Now you have a cms for any joe-blow to come and erect a site. It's like when you see some local small business owner who didn't want to spend money on a real site, and decided to do one of those "build-a-site-in-5-minutes-for-free" things. Like a Yola, Tripod or Bravo or whatever. Or like Godaddy....buy something from them and you get bombarded with build a website in 5 minutes for free crap. If you make Drupal that pointy-and-clicky, then then you attract all the Godaddy-type-Nascar fans that want a POS website. I don't know anyone who takes Godaddy, Yola, Tripod or the like, seriously. What corporation is going to want their sites/backends/blogs built with a point-and-click software? Their going to look at Drupal like a joke. Leave the point-and-click to Drupal Gardens and the like.
Overlay? Really? What a piece of junk. I disable on every instance that gets set up. Dashboard? stupid. Book? Move to contrib Forum? Move to contrib Shortcut? Move to contrib Toolbar? Junk. Move to contrib PHP? bye Profile? Move to contrib Trigger? bye 'Install new module' right on the admin/modules page? FML Shall I go on?
Screw the UX and usability....work on performance, scalability, cleaner code, smaller core instead.
I love that Drupal has attracted the big corporations. That is how we make the majority of our revenue. but, you make it easy enough for an 80 year old, and we are going to lose those big companies.
I really dislike this pact of an App Store that the big Drupal shops are trying to push. D.org just needs a better "Marketplace." It is really crappy right now. And it 'needs' to be on d.org, not an outside domain. And it should only be for finding Drupal paid services easily. Not ready-to-go modules for sale. Take a look at Joomla. All they really have is outside paid extensions that are pureeee junk. It's maylay.
Who is going to test these modules? Who is going to find bugs in these modules? Who is going to ensure Drupal coding standards? Only the developers of that module, and the people who pay for them. That is exactly opposite of what Drupal is and is suppose to be. We are great because you can download/test/hack/change the crap out of every single thing on Drupal. That is how so much testing and bug finding gets done on modules. Any and all can contribute to anything and everything. I am a firm believer that all Drupal modules should be gnu/gpl. There is plenty of money to be made in every other aspect of Drupal. Core is free, so modules should be. An App store will commercialize Drupal in a direction that we don't want to go down.
-Jeff Cook
I'm also agreed that Drupal
I'm also agreed that Drupal need to pursue technological excellence. But I found it's not out of sight of community. Now we need an eyes, helps from community to get it done right.
Backgound from our very core developers recently are good starting places for us:
a.) PRODUCT, FRAMEWORK, OR PLATFORM?
b.) Crisis
c.) Crisis Conclusion
d.) Getting Drupal out of the crisis
e.) The Drupal 8 action plan
There're more, but this is enough to get started.
This is what I can come up with:
1.) Usability modules in Drupal 7.
Causes:
1.1.1) Usability is new stuff to Drupal. 1.1.2) Many of them are rushed in, not done right.
Results:
1.2.1) They got a lot of nasty bug. 1.2.2) They are half-baked and still in it infancy. 1.2.3) They become things holding back core.
Solutions:
1.3.1) People are addressed them, now working to find real solutions. (It is becoming long. Please keep signal, to make it easy to work with, suppress noise as some devs pointed out.) 1.3.2) They are addressed by many people, many steped in as maintainers, still needed more expert resources to do it. But they won't going to hold back kernel devs anymore.
2.) Many outdated modules.
Causes:
2.1.1) Core Developer don't have resources, interesting in them. 2.1.2) Very little people work and maintain them.
Results:
2.2.1) They got a lot of nasty bug. 2.2.2) They become outdated. 2.2.3) They become things holding back core.
Solutions:
2.3.1) People are addressed them, now working to find real solutions 2.3.2) Platform Initiative 2.3.3) Framework Initiative
3.) Please describe more on 'Install new module' right on the admin/modules page, you mean Project Browser ?
- Please show community the light, I'm still biased because I can't come up with it holistically and didn't learned it code. I hope I could help more. If it would have consequences. We can prevent it now, before it get in core.
4.) Solution for anyone only interested in kernel:
- We will have it, Drupal core download. But no one can gauranteed when, even our volunteered kernel developer. Please aim to help make good for causes and process, so we will have good result from it (input -> output, now is input phase.).
5.) To this:
"I love that Drupal has attracted the big corporations. That is how we make the majority of our revenue. but, you make it easy enough for an 80 year old, and we are going to lose those big companies."
Background:
5.0.1) Very background, IMO we are on the way to Drupal and eliminating middlemen for a while. 5.0.2) At the same time, small shops and developers have raised concerns about losing jobs. Especially, to App Stores.
Causes:
5.1.1)If Drupal will aim to solved too much problem for end user, without address site builder and developers. We are doing it wrong because Drupal alienated them. 5.1.2)If Drupal don't aim to solved any problem for end user, only address site builder and developers. We are doing it wrong because Drupal can't grow.
Solution:
5.3.1) Anyone who interesting and concern in this should step up join and synergy Open App Inititive to balance the direction of it. Make a loud and logical proposal will cartainly make impact because it is infancy and not proved yet. 5.3.2) Many people has raised concerns, somewhat related to it. I'm not support if small business will eat small shop business, but I do support if big business empowered small business.
6.) Comment note on App Store:
6.a) It's negative if Drupal modules become commercialized. 6.b) Drupal.org need to setup infrastructure for better Marketplace.
Sorry abou formatting, need to learn more about this editor. Got to go get my job done now. Hope I did some help here ;)
Also, thanks deekayen so much to pointed out my bug! (My english also suck, I'm working a lot on it too.)
Richard C
You'd think with all of Acquia's funding
On the modules page, you can install a module right from there. I think it's absolutely idiotic.
You'd think with all of Acquia's funding, they could slip us more then enough core devs. Looks like they are using all the money to fund their Drupal commercial projects. There is nothing wrong with using your funding to make more money with Drupal, but damn, give some attention to drupal.org....the actual piece of software that got you where you are today! Dries looks like he is too caught up in corporate America to pay attention to Drupal anymore. He is focusing on everything else related to Drupal, but not actually Drupal.org.
Drupal has eliminated many jobs, but it will never eliminate the need for a company/corporation that needs a professional to build a complex site. You can't point and click your way through to a huge complex site/web app/backend. It's just not possible. And no decent company would ever there site to be made by just pointing and clicking. But if you make Drupal into a joke to solve every stupid little problem, companies will look elsewhere.
I also fear that we will lose a lot of jobs/work to an all mighty App Store.
I do think that Drupal needs to have the site builders/developers in mind first and foremost. The end user should be last. It is the job of the site builder/developer to solve the problems and make it easier for the end user! I can't put it anymore simple. We as developers are the one's that make it so the end user(client) can have an easy admin area, a pretty interface, and point and click interaction. We make it that way. It is NOT Drupal core's job to do that! It's ours!
Now there's more scary thing
Now there's more scary thing for you here: IBM Plans To Create Chips That Work Like the Human Brain. Don't worry I think Acquia is too small to take your job away. IBM sure do. And I like it, I don't want to work. But even with that I think I still have work to do, so disappointing.
Didn't you read that I don't support big business eat small business? Anyway, I can't stop laughing now! Calm down, stay with present. Richard C
Ha Ha most of what I was
Ha Ha most of what I was saying was not directed at what you said. I was just going off on a tangent to express how I feel. I wasn't trying to fight with you. I was just letting out some steam. :)
Er... "I am a firm believer
Er... "I am a firm believer that all Drupal modules should be gnu/gpl"... read the licence, Drupal is GPL so all the modules are too. "App Store" doesn't mean the software won't be FOSS.
In that draft, there is one
In that draft, there is one tiny tiny mention of the word money. That is how much they are trying to avoid discussion of the topic. Every talk I have heard about it never mentions/or just barely mentions money/cost/prices. Because it is such a touchy subject and no one wants to talk about it. Furthermore, there is nothing in there about gpl. They are not even 'modules' now. They are 'Apps.' So your license comment won't even apply because they are not modules, and they won't be hosted on d.org. Apps won't be gpl, you're dreaming if you think so.
The DA has been protective of GPL
To date, the Drupal Association has interpreted the GPL to mean that if you create software that interfaces with the Drupal GPLed API, then that software itself must also be GPL. It applies to theme and code as I have seen it.
How much you want to bet that
How much you want to bet that there would be an amendment to that? The whole idea behind an app store is to buy them. Acquia and Phase2 are in bed with big big money, funding, corporations, government.
software
nice posting...
I don't like it
One thing that makes Drupal different is there is only one main source to download everything, and I like it that way. Another thing is that we have open source modules. Everything is free to download and play with, which creates better productivity, better testing, better collaboration, better finding and fixing of bugs. The paid work/modules should be left up to the Drupal shops when they do custom work for companies. Even then those modules should be contributed back to the community if legalities permit it. Module creators gain a lot of paid work by people visiting their project page, liking their module, and asking for custom work. The idea of an App store or whatever you want to name it, makes me cringe.
In my opinion, if you can't install a module the traditional ways, then you have no business building a website. Creating some sort of laymen's installer just creates non needed bloat. I don't like this idea of making Drupal easy enough for an 80 year old grandma to install. This leads to a core that is filled with crap just for the dummies.
-Jeff Cook
Drupal is already fine for
Drupal is already fine for developers. If you'd like to cut off its expansion because you're feeling elitist about it, then where is Drupal to go from here?
Drupal already has a stable hook system, relatively stable APIs, and a platform to support them. What it needs help with is the huge novice crowd I see at Drupal meetups and camps. There are plenty of people who have no idea what third normal form is in a database who are tasked with creating a website. They've already recognized there's a huge contrib pool of ways to modify their website without having to program a thing, but they're frustrated by simple things like where to upload a module once they've un-zipped Drupal and put it on their godaddy account.
The bloat you speak of shouldn't run on every page execution, just when you want to install a module.
The rest of us developers can keep using drush and check the updates into version control since we will fork, patch, and work changes through an issue queue.
User Friendly
Doesn't most of the Drupal bloat come from the fact that it has this layer of form<->database thing bolted on top of it that's supposed to make rearranging things easier for non-technical admining type folks. The idea being that you don't need to know SQL or good solid database design in order to build a data collection from end?
My experience with it has demonstrated that it's largely a useless feature. How often does a site change the datatype of an input field once designed and in use? How often is the input form completely rearranged and modified by someone who doesn't know the first thing about db's? No, most of the folks using this front-end to create the backend are the developers. They eventually find that it's faster to just edit some SQL and wrap it in an .install file that runs via update.php. It even feels awkward to folks who do understand database design. But isn't that what a CMS offers? An easy content management system? I've never really liked CMS's. They always feel bloated, awkward, and slow.
This feature makes moving from dev->test->staging->live difficult as well.
In my opinion if you can't design a good NSF3 table using standard SQL then you have no business running a database driven dynamic website.
There are many people arriving at a point of realization that Drupal is not the scratch to every itch. There are many tools out there that serve various purposes and uses. Sure, you can do it with the Drupal hammer, but should you?
It's ok to try other things. Drupal is not a programming language. PHP is. All your PHP skills you've earned with Drupal are transferable to other php frameworks, platforms, or cms's. Drupal is not a framework. Symphony is. CakePHP is. If you want a small core with a set of really useful functions then I highly recommend you check one of these out. If not these then on of the many php frameworks out there.
A Google search doesn't show anything promising for Drupal. Does Drupal have goals? How does it know when it's succeeded? Failed? On course, off track? What unit of measure is used to determine what's the next important thing to focus on? From an outsider looking in. It's mob rule over there.
- Mojo
Project Browser module
Check out Project Browser: http://drupal.org/project/project_browser Video demo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFDBQqTfG-8
This has some GREAT similarities to an App Store, but not a 'store'.
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